Rastreando pilas tecnológicas, prácticas y experiencias a través de equipos.

Transcripción del episodio

Alexey Boas: Hello, and welcome to the Thoughtworks Technology Podcast. My name is Alexey. I'm speaking to you from Santiago in Chile, and I will be one of your hosts this time, together with Ken Mugrage. Hello, Ken.

Ken Mugrage: Hi, folks. It's Ken speaking, as always, from Seattle, Washington, United States. Welcome.

Alexey: This time around, we'll talk about the Tech Dash. That's a practice and an accompanying tool we've developed in Thoughtworks to better understand technology uses, technology practices, and excellence in our teams. For that, I'm thrilled to have Camilla Crispim and Renan Martins here with us. Maybe we can do a quick round of introductions. Camilla, would you mind introducing yourself?

Camilla Crispim: Sure, yes. Thanks for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm Camilla. I'm based in São Paulo, Brazil. I'm a principal consultant at Thoughtworks, engineer advisor, also part of the group that puts together the technology radar. I've been part of Renan's team, and that's where everything about the Tech Dash started.

Alexey: Amazing. A pleasure to have you with us Camilla. How about you, Renan?

Renan Martins: Hi, everybody. It's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me to share about Tech Dash. I'm Renan Martins. I'm the regional head of technology of our digital engineering center in Latin America currently, but Tech Dash came about a few years ago when we were leading technology in Thoughtworks Brazil.

Alexey: That's great. Amazing to have you with us. Before we get into exactly what the Tech Dash is, Renan, maybe you can tell us a little bit about the overall context at the time, the challenges we were trying to address.

Renan: Sure. Absolutely. Basically, we were in the midst of a rapidly evolving global landscape. Particularly at Thoughtworks Brazil at the time, we were experiencing a very rapid growth, something around 40% year over year. For us, it was essential to maintain a high level of awareness around our technology landscape, around our technology excellence in software development. Reason being, because this excellence is something we pursue actively here and has always been a core part of our identity. As a head of technology for Thoughtworks Brazil at the time, I was responsible for ensuring that our deliverables and everything we delivered to our customers consistently resonated with this standard.

With this growth, it became increasingly challenging because it was like hundreds and hundreds of teams and a decreasing average tenure among our team members as well. To address these challenges, we launched, at the time, an initiative called Tech Assurance Brazil, which eventually evolved into having Tech Dash as a tool being built. Our goal was basically to address this challenge and offer broad visibility into the current technological state of our teams and also help multiple stakeholders from different areas in our business that were also navigating these changes.

Alexey: Then perhaps you can talk us a little bit about what is Tech Dash. It's a tool, but it's also more than that, right? Maybe let's get into definition of sorts or something. What is it?

Renan: Yes. Tech Dash is basically a tool and a process altogether basically to bring technology, data visibility, bring it to the surface. It's a way for us to collect and know the technology stack, the practices, tools, platforms, frameworks, you name it, that the teams use in their projects. We also collect some subjective information such as the comfort level that the team has with each individual technology stack, and also some practices, and how they are going about implementing them. With that type of data, we intend to promote continuous improvement, data-driven decision-making and reflection in our teams so that they can pursue this excellence. You asked about what Tech Dash is, but I will take the opportunity to talk about what it is not as well because it's equally important, Alexey, I think. It's not a scorecard, it's not a tool to assess teams. It's not a tool for comparing teams by no means. It's basically a way of us to getting to know the technology state, the technology data from our teams. That is extremely important as well to highlight.

Alexey: Cool. Camilla, maybe you can talk to us a little bit about how does it work for a team. Before we get into benefits and those kinds of things, but still on trying to understand what it is, how does it work, and what does the team need to do, and how does it affect its day-to-day.

Camilla: Basically, the team needs to fill out a survey which asks pretty much all the information that Renan mentioned before. One concern that we had is that for many years, we used to have spreadsheets at Thoughtworks where, once in a while or every month, you would have to fill out, let's say, a Google form or something of that nature. Technology stack practices and all that, they don't change that often. One concern that we had when we were putting together the process, and later the tool, was adoption. We didn't want it to be just yet another form or yet another way to ask people and people not being able or not wanting to answer that.

What we did was we basically did a mechanism to repeat the answers from one month to the next month. Then what the team needs to do or the tech lead or the tech representative of that unit, they can go and update what needs to be updated. They don't need to fill out all over again, and they just recap, is this still true? We can change what needs to be changed, but that comes pre-filled in. I believe that helped a lot, and that was one of the things back in the time when Renan and I, we were tech leads, and we were like, "Yes, I didn't like to do that, so maybe we need to fix it." That was one improvement that we brought to life, and I think it worked quite well.

Alexey: Yes, that's great, keeping as lightweight as possible, right? Yes.

Camilla: Yes. Just to add on what you asked, the tech lead of the team usually have added rights to go and fill out that information, but in practice, what we've seen is a very collaborative sort of process where the team gets together to answer the questions. That helps to have a broad view, not a single-person view. I think that emphasizes the software development as a team sport sort of thing. It asks about how comfortable is the team with a certain stack and not individuals. It is definitely not about individuals. It is focused on the team.

Ken: On that end, what have you done to encourage people to be as open and transparent as possible? Even if it is just about the team, sometimes in other organizations, certainly not at Thoughtworks, but in other organizations, people are hesitant to necessarily say when they're struggling, or if they're struggling. What have you done to encourage that?

Camilla: Even at Thoughtworks, Ken, it was a concern at the beginning. It is not supposed to be a way to measure performance, people, definitely not to compare, and so on. We did a lot of conversations with the teams and within the portfolios to ensure that that message was getting across and showing also people the insights that we were collecting and how we wanted to get to build a community as we used to have in our offices before the pandemic because that was right after the pandemic. We lost a lot about the natural, let's say, knowledge sharing and hearing the other team, the other table talking about something that you could help.

We also brought to life those examples so people could understand the benefits that they would also get and giving them enough information for them to trust the process and to trust us. That's definitely not something that's easily done. It is required, trust is required regardless, and inside of Thoughtworks as well, but Renan can probably speak about a broader view on that.

Renan: Yes, I think you touched on very good points, Camilla. I fully agree that creating the right environment is key in this type of initiative, and it involves a few critical steps. I think first we made sure to emphasize transparency and trust. Everyone using Tech Dash needed to feel secure that the data they provided wouldn't be used punitively but rather to support their growth and improvement, and also that they're part of a broader community and ecosystem. For myself, for example, as a head of tech or some other leaders like Camilla in one part of the portfolio, for us to understand that there is a capability gap, for example, where we would need to take some action either through learning and development or through some other mechanism to support everyone, we would need to understand individual teams for that purpose alone.

Not to assess or compare them. They would understand, for example, that by providing the data, they would be enriching the community as well because people would be aware that, oh, there is a team over there working on another client, another industry in a completely different context, but that is similar to me because we are sharing the same technology stack. That by itself created something that they share, that they have in common, and that it would be something important for everyone to contribute to. The subjective information, what allows us more strategically to understand which technology stacks were resonating more with developers, the ones they were feeling better about, the ones they were being able to use and implement better and feel better, have provided a better developer experience as well.

We know how important these things are for high-performing teams. We were able to see some cases where a certain technology was actually gaining a lot of adoption and developers were feeling good about them, the teams were feeling good about them. We could understand, upon some investigation, why was that, and come up with some important recommendations at the industry level through our different publications. That is super, super strategic for us, but yes, all of that is only possible if we have that safe environment, which our culture, I fully agree, Ken, is fully supportive, and everyone assume that trust and transparency everywhere.

Camilla: Say, I got to be honest—

Alexey: Go ahead.

Camilla: —here and say that I quoted Rebecca a couple of times when talking to people, and say, "Look, I can't solve a problem that I don't know that exists. I'm here to help. We are here to help, but we got to know what is going on. This is just one way for you to tell us."

Alexey: Yes, of course. The upside of that safe environment, it brings benefits in many different dimensions and not just in collecting those kind of things and so on. Investing in that is definitely really, really important for organizations. Renan, you started to talk about some things I wanted to ask a little bit more about, so the benefits and the value that Tech Dash can bring to the organization. You mentioned a little bit about creating communities and connection to the teams, but also things about understanding the whole ecosystem, what's happening in teams, and things like that. From that perspective of technology management, and since you had the head of tech role at the time, for Brazil, what's your perspective on that value? When you think at that portfolio level, and I imagine that's something very common for many organizations who need to understand the whole spectrum of things, teams are doing on the ground and things like that, how does Tech Dash provide value from that perspective?

Renan: That's a great question, Alexey. I think it does provide value at the different levels. From the individual level, someone who just needs to figure out who else is working on a similar technology, reach out to and start collaborating, and learning, and sharing, and eventually driving that forward, like in building best practices and learning how to use that technology and evolving it. At the portfolio level, Alexey, I think things gets really interesting because we can then identify bigger trends. For example, certain technologies that started small but gained adoption very quickly.

For us, that showed that that technology has something special with the community and the practitioners, so we could investigate and we could understand why. We could see that the technology was changing based on some business decision we have taken, for example. We were expanding, at the time, the type of services and solutions we were offering to our clients. We were focusing a lot about data and AI, for example. We could see a lot of more data stacks present in our teams over time, which was telling me that it was working, and we were growing that type of capability internally in our business.

Just to give one example of something we noticed, I even have some examples of things we noticed at the time. I think it's worth mentioning, for example, at the time, we noticed TypeScript taking over the front-end ecosystem basically, so, a lot of new TypeScript projects and teams using this technology. We noticed that, for example, Kubernetes and containerization was something booming up to a point of majority of teams, by far, was using containers in non-production and production environments. We could see that, oh, that was actually a big shift.

There is no more space for solutions without considering them at all in that scenario. It was an important thing for us to know about and a constant in our delivery teams. Another thing we noticed was Kotlin, which started in the mobile world, in the mobile space. Then eventually we noticed that Kotlin was being used a lot in the backend, JVM-based type of services, and Kotlin being used in the backend. That was interesting to see how the community was adopting and why the reasons. That type of insight and analysis was only possible by having the collective information, the consolidated and the 10,000 feet view of how the portfolio was shaping from the technologies stack perspective, for example.

Alexey: Yes, that's cool. One of the coolest things I've always found about a global consultancy like Thoughtworks is that you get to see what's happening everywhere in several different industries and places in the world. Then if you can aggregate those things, you can really start to see some of these industry trends and things like that. I guess it's kind of the same organizational structure that allows us to build a technology radar, and maybe we can see some of that.

Camilla: Yes, it was very nice to make the parallel between things that appeared on the radar a couple years ago and how that was coming to life or spreading and becoming broader like the trends that Renan mentioned before, like Docker Docker Docker. I think it was a team in 2017 or something like that.

Alexey: Renan, just to close the loop on that, benefits for the organization, you talked about the industry, but at the beginning, you talked about some of the things in the organization. Does something like Tech Dash allow you to see adoption of new techniques we are trying to spread in the company or identify patterns and things like, oh, everyone is using this tech stack, so let's fire up a joint learning development program on these type of things? What is the connection between, that and what have you seen? It feels like that's very useful for all types of organizations that can think of gathering that kind of information from their teams to think about more centrally defined or centrally managed initiatives, programs, and supporting.

Renan: That is absolutely right, Alexey. I think Tech Dash is a great tool to track that type of program. If you are an engineering leader of a highly diverse, heterogeneous organization who has many different teams working on different products, maybe as a result of multiple acquisitions, for example. You have a very heterogeneous type of environment, and you want to understand, for example, first of all, what is all these technology that you're working on and working with, and how comfortable your teams are in terms of using them, and also what's working, what's not working.

If you are, for example, driving some change that would result in technology adoption from the teams, Tech Dash could tell you how you are progressing over time at a monthly basis because we take snapshots every month, for example, to spot that trend in what's changing. For us, it's extremely important because, as a consultancy, we have hundreds and hundreds of teams working on a variety of different industries and with technologies. For us, it's important to understand this landscape and how the teams are doing with these technologies.

Spot trends, and spot common practices, and tools, and frameworks. This all helps us internally to make sure we are delivering what we need to deliver at the excellence level that we expect, and also to foster the collaboration, the continuous improvement that we talked about so far. It's definitely useful for many organizations that are looking into that.

Ken: One of the things I'm curious about, we talk about tech stack and tools, and those sorts of things, but also this tool, one of the reasons that we're talking about it is usage of these methods in this tool has grown globally inside the organization. Are other parts of your organization, and I really honestly don't know the answer to this, using it for different reasons? For example, central banking is very different in different parts of the world, and so different tech stacks, and so forth, might use something like a blockchain in Brazil where they wouldn't use it in the US. Are these helping business leaders with recruiting and planning too, or is there thoughts to go that direction, or am I just being strange?

Renan: Yes, it definitely helps to spot those cases where, for example, they're rare in the portfolio as well, at the global level, that brings a lot of benefits. For example, working within a blockchain implementation is something not very common. We could definitely find one project working on one region with something similar, and then connect the teams. That's possible after having a centralized tool capturing these data and bringing it to the surface.

As far as helping other areas, yes, definitely. For example, learning and development in any organization is interested in learning what are the capabilities we need to do what we need to do to build the products and deliver the services we need to deliver, and what is the state of that capability in the business today. If there is any gap, we need to bring learning and development and specific actions. Because we ask the teams how comfortable they are with certain technologies, we can definitely understand that for certain technologies we need more learning and development initiatives.

We can even identify, for example, at the client level, at the team level, if there is any gap. That could help staffing. If you have a challenge that you need to solve through software and you need to staff a team, you need to understand, for example, if you have that skill and capability inside the organization, and if you have done that before. Looking at past data, historical data can help you understand that and bring those who can help, for example, deliver that solution better. In Thoughtworks, for example, in the demand organization, when we are talking to customers about a specific type of solution, it's very important for our demand team to understand if we have done that before and at scale or not, and where and when, and bring cases and talk about examples.

Tech Dash is actually a great place for you to go and understand where we use that type of technology and practice, and bring examples to prospects and clients, for example. Yes, it can help many areas within the organizations.

Camilla: To this point, Renan. I think as an advisor, I can benefit a lot from the data that is inside of Tech Dash because I get a consistent view of trends across the globe. I can advise business leaders to say, "In your field, this is what's happening, not only in Latam but also in other regions. You might want to consider this when you're putting together your tax strategy or your business strategy." That is very, very helpful, and in general terms, I think that if you as a tech leader or a business leader, and you want to have data-informed strategy, having a tool such as Tech Dash would help you, and it would benefit you in knowing how to put together that strategy, as well as following up whether you are getting closer or not so close to your goals.

Alexey: Beyond consolidating, but Camilla, you started to talk a little bit about the tech leads, and I'm curious about that perspective. Because you both mentioned forming communities and finding people working on similar things, from a team's perspective, can a tech lead use information in Tech Dash, and then understand well, people with similar problems, similar technologies, and those kinds of things? Does that work, and how does that dynamic work and serve those teams on the ground?

Camilla: Yes, for sure. Not only the tech lead but anyone in the team, actually, anyone within Thoughtworks can have a look at Tech Dash and see what might be the project available and what type of stack they are using. If you're willing to learn about that, you may invest some time in learning it and might ask to switch project or something like that. Also, if you are struggling with something or facing a business problem, and you can link to other teams that do really well in a certain area, that would help you in a way, get help as a self-service help, in a sense, where you don't have someone in between to tell you where you should go to ask for support or point you to someone that could help you, which was something that Renan, and I, and other leaders in the technology space used to do when we were smaller.

Now we have this self-service way for you to spot on which teams, which people could help you moving forward. Even not only if you are struggling, but you are seeking to become a leader in a space or you want to specialize in something, then you can find that information in an easy way.

Renan: One good example would be, I think it's a common challenge today, how many of our teams are using generative AI in the context of software development, which tools they're using. That is something that you can quickly understand, and from there, have the conversations that you need to better develop a strategy or take some actions. That is just one example, and at different levels, we can have people searching for data with different intents as well.

Alexey: That's cool. You have been putting the tool and the processes together for one challenge. That's quite common in the industry, right? Understanding what the teams are doing, what do they do in common, and how can you extract patterns, learnings, and connect people doing similar things. What learnings would you have to share to other people? Any advice? Any things that were critical in that journey that other people should pay attention to? Maybe you can share some of that wisdom to our listeners.

Renan: Yes, I would start by acknowledging that technology data is extremely important and can tell you many things at the team level, product level, org level. Find a way to track that data is critical for engineering leaders, but also for business leaders. The technology data can tell you a lot about what's going on in your teams. Since technology is every day more embedded into the business and the products and services and everything, it's going to tell you an interesting story when you start analyzing what's going on over time.

That would be the first, is to make sure that that data is being tracked and analyzed just like any other important data you currently track in your environment, in your business.

Secondly, I think in order to do that effectively, you need to build an environment of trust and transparency within your teams, especially around the subjective type of information you want to collect. We talked about that already in terms of the comfort level and how well the teams are using that technology. What they want to share, the lessons learned, the mistakes, all the things that we are interested in.

Unless there is that safe environment, they won't share to the extent that you as a leader would like. Ensure that the data is collected and used constructively to drive improvement, not as a punitive measure, is super important. Yes, from a leadership perspective, also I think it's essential to allow tech changes to happen organically informed by this data. The only constant we have in technology is that it's actually changing all the time. If you have a tool like Tech Dash or any different tool or process to track technology, your goal should never be to make sure everyone is compliant and using the very same technology stack across the board throughout the entire year or two years, otherwise, you are focusing on the wrong thing.

It should allow change to happen, and it should welcome that. It's more about knowing how the change is happening and what it's telling you, and how can you drive improvement from that? I think the intent of having a tool and a process to track that data is super important. I think that data can really help and inform your tech strategy, your next steps and guide the teams more effectively, including the subjective information. We know how important it is the developer experience and how people feel the wellbeing of teams, and how well they feel when they are working with certain technology, relates to the high-performing teams in your org. Pay attention to that as well.

Alexey: How about you, Camilla? Any final thoughts you want to share?

Camilla: Yes. I think looking at the team level especially, it is important that the team has access to these data so they could go through the reflection process and getting insights, and thinking about how to improve. I think a key thing in this whole process and usage of Tech Dash is, in fact, the continuous improvement and pursue of excellence, part of it. We do want people to continue improve, and they should will to do that as well. I think looking at how they are doing, and where they could be, and what they can achieve is very helpful and very powerful for the team, but also for the organization as a whole. This also contributes to the adoption of the tool and the process. It is not about being in a scorecard, it should be about improving consistently and throughout the months and the time.

Alexey: Yes. Amazing. Thanks, Camilla. It's been a really fun conversation. Even though Tech Dash is an internal tool and process to Thoughtworks, there are many, many insights here that apply almost anywhere. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. Unfortunately, we're coming to the end of our conversation. It was a great one and amazing to have you with us. Thank you so much for joining.

Camilla: Thank you.

Ken: Thank you.

Renan: Thank you, Ken and Alexey. It was great to be here.