The change agent's playbook: How to lead bold transformations

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kimberly Boyd: Welcome to Pragmatism in Practice, a podcast from Thoughtworks, where we share stories of practical approaches to becoming a modern digital business. I'm Kimberly Boyd, and I'm here with Shawn Mandel, Chief Digital and Data Officer at Parkland. Today, we're going to talk about what it takes to be a true change agent, particularly what it takes when an organization is operated in a more traditional manner. Welcome to Pragmatism in Practice, Shawn.

Great to have you with us today on what is a cold, snowy day in Canada and much of the US, even all the way down here in Florida, where I'm currently at. What better time to chat change? Maybe to get us started off, it would be great if you could introduce yourself to our listeners. Tell us a little bit about you and your role, as well as a little bit about who Parkland is and what they do.

[00:00:52] Shawn Mandel: Yes, of course. It's a pleasure, Kimberly. Great to see you again, and excited to be on the podcast today. First of all, I'm Shawn Mandel. I have about 25 years experience across media, telco, entertainment, and now energy, predominantly in roles that have involved product development and moving from product into digital. A lot of the work that I've done repeatedly over and over again has been about transformation, change, how to get people aligned to deliver outcomes. I've spent the last 25 years experiencing all the wins and failures along the way, and I'm excited to share that with you all today.

So Parkland, as a larger organization, might not be as well known to those even in Canada or the US or the Caribbean in which we operate. We're a fuel distributor, marketer, and convenience retailer, and also have a large B2B commercial and wholesale business. We operate in 26 countries. We have 4,000 retail stores. We service a million customers a day. Really, what Parkland's all about is powering what moves people. That's the tagline that we talk about, and it's very appropriate for the type of business we're in, whether it's traditional fuel or whether it's the work we're doing, even deploying electric vehicle charging networks.

Our strategy, at a very high level, and a lot of this information's available on our investor website, is centered around two things. One is our customer advantage and the work that we're doing to drive loyalty and affinity and great customer experiences. Those are underpinned by things like a loyalty program, as an example, on the business-to-consumer side. Then also our supply advantage. We're a large supplier of product, so we buy and move product around, and how we can drive the lowest cost to serve. It's that symbiotic relationship between supply advantage, customer advantage, which is what Parkland's all about.

[00:02:52] Kimberly: Wonderful. Thanks for that overview, and I love "Powering What Moves People."

[00:02:56] Shawn: I joined Parkland November 2022. The role that we co-created with the executive team was about digital and data. That really translates, I would say, into probably three things. One, tactically, day-to-day, I run with the team—obviously, it's not just me, it's all about the team—our digital platform. That really manifests itself in our loyalty experience through something called JOURNIE™ Rewards and the JOURNIE™ Rewards application and then an entire digital platform that sits underneath of that. Various different composable technologies integrated together to create a great customer experience.

Calling it just loyalty, I think, would underplay really what's going on. As you enter that ecosystem of JOURNIE™, you'll find that you can do e-commerce, you'll find that there's a loyalty program, you'll find that it's the gateway into our electric vehicle charging network. We've really been on a journey for the last two years or so to reinvent that experience for our customers. That's one big component of the role. The other side of the role is also driving our overall data supply chain. My team runs the data infrastructure for Parkland and partners with various IT teams and business teams to essentially pull data off of source systems, stage, and curate that data for consumption.

That could be anything from simple reporting to things that are more sophisticated like AI and machine learning type use cases. Then I think the third thing as a part of my role, which is less, I guess, tactical and day-to-day, is about the future, is about where are we taking the organization from a change and transformation perspective? It's not like we have some big, large change agenda, but what we're trying to do is take all the lessons in the toolkit that we've amassed through our experiences at Parkland and through others who have joined the organization to say, "Hey, if we're going to go tackle a problem like loyalty, how can we do that with an experience-led mindset, with agile ways of working and just start to actually change the way in which we work and how we deliver value to our customers.

A lot of the change that we're driving is happening at the domain level, where we're breaking the organization into components. As we tackle initiatives within any one of those domains, we're starting to drive a step change in how we do work and then, inevitably, how we deliver outcomes for customers.

[00:05:24] Kimberly: It doesn't sound like there's a lot of dull moments with-

[00:05:26] Shawn: [crosstalk] No, it's pretty boring. Pretty boring.

[00:05:28] Kimberly: -all that in play, but definitely lots of, I think, exciting spaces that it sounds like you're across. We're here to talk about the C word today, that being change. I heard you say when you were describing your role that it was created for the organization, which immediately makes me think you were specifically brought in as an agent of change when there's a role created in an enterprise for an individual. As someone who's had experience driving a lot of digital change in a number of different industries and organizations, Shawn, what's your take on the qualities that define a strong change agent? What does someone need to come to the table with in order to be successful as a change agent?

[00:06:19] Shawn: Yes. There's a lot of different words or adjectives that come to mind when we think about this, and using the word transformation or change agent, I think, is-- Got to think about really what that means beyond just the words themselves. A lot of what we talk about is a lot of really good change agents, if you will, have a series of attributes. If you think about them, it could be they're excellent storytellers. They're really good at inspiring people. They're really good lateral thinkers, and they can understand decisions that happen in one part of the business and the impact they can have on others.

They're good at orchestrating. How do we bring multiple teams together to deliver value? We talk about facilitation and how we can facilitate towards different outcomes. They're also curious because in an organization like Parkland that has a large consumer business, a large B2B business, a supply business, we're also a refiner. In Burnaby, BC, we own a refinery. Those are different teams and different parts of the business that are at different stages of their own journey.

I think the best change agents, just to use that word, understand that the pace of change in different parts of the organization is different and your ability to empathize and understand where they are on their journey and then start to custom fit a little bit the toolkit you've developed that works for any given business unit, I think is the trick here. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach.

[00:07:52] Kimberly: Yes, right. I think that's recipe for disaster. If you have that mentality for change, it definitely isn't one size fits all. You've talked a little bit about some of the skills that are really central to being successful and driving change. Is there any particular background that you see as being beneficial when someone's got the mandate to drive a lot of organizational change?

[00:08:15] Shawn: I have a business degree with a whole bunch of psychology courses who got thrown into product development roles and was forced to become technical more and more and more over time. I'm not an engineer. I do believe that if I was a bit more technical, that's quite the dangerous weapon, if you will, and this combination of having the business savvy and the business context and understanding the business, and then being able to pair that with understanding the technology. Really, we always just talk about that translator role where you can translate between the two is probably the most deadly skill set or toolkit you could have in this type of role.

[00:08:56] Kimberly: Yes, you're a digital psychologist in that. [laughs]

[00:08:59] Shawn: A lot of it really is about people. I think when you boil it all down and you have a bunch of experience doing this in many different companies, you start to realize that the common denominator in all of this is the humans and it's the culture and it's the people and it's the work processes. You could build the greatest AI engine, you could build the greatest digital platform, but if you don't adapt the ways in which you work around the technology in concert with it, you're not going to get very far.

[00:09:29] Kimberly: 100%. Couldn't agree more. I have an opportunity to speak to lots of great clients such as yourself, do a lot of client interviews, and that is the resounding thing that comes back. The tech is, surprisingly, the easy part. It's the getting all the individuals mobilized and embracing that change around it that is always the hairiest, scariest part for organizations. You talked a bit about it can't be a one-size-fits-all, especially when you have a lot of very different business units in an organization. How do you go about assessing an organization's or even a business unit's readiness for change before you dive in and start to kick things off?

[00:10:16] Shawn: A lot of us who've been doing this for a while have built up our own checklist, if you will, of what are the questions that you ask? Even some of the mentors that I have and the folks that I've been able to interact with throughout my career and even recently just are really good at asking questions. I think it's coming down to actually spending the time with the teams on the ground. It's also about finding out where the work gets done. The work don't get done in a boardroom. You have to find a way to work your way through an organization to figure out who's actually doing the work and spending time with those teams.

I also think that finding ways to get closer to the customer is also super important. In our business, we have a pretty strong discipline about being in the field, being on site in a store, doing site visits, or even, like in our commercial business, going to one of our assets in our facilities that takes product in, blends product, moves product around. The more you understand how the business works, the more you understand the customer, the better position you are to ask better questions, but also, this old lesson learned, which is, don't try and re-engineer something you don't understand. You have to spend the time.

I've always been a big believer in quality over speed and doing as much planning as you can because that will always ease delivery and make sure that what you're delivering is that much better. For those who might be curious about ways to approach this, there is no lack of information online through any favorite website or consulting company that would give you a framework around how to carve this up. I'm probably not going to lead you to any specific place, but there's more than enough literature online around what a digital transformation scorecard looks like or what the types of questions are that you need to ask.

If there's one thing that stands out consistently over and over again, it's really the power of building good relationships and how relationships is like currency, and it really enables you to get things done if you build the right relationships.

[00:12:35] Kimberly: I think that's a fantastic point, and I just want to hone in on what you said around the asking questions. To me, that's all about curiosity and maintaining that mindset first and foremost. Especially when you're building relationships with individuals, going in and having that open mind to who they are and what matters to them, and what the processes are. If you can keep that front and center, you usually can't go too wrong.

[00:13:00] Shawn: It's also about being respectful, too. What was it? Was it Ted Lasso or something with that quote around-

[00:13:06] Kimberly: Yes, be curious, not judgmental. Yes. [crosstalk]

[00:13:07] Shawn: -"Be curious, not judgmental?" It's so true. Maybe it's cliche, maybe it's like-- It's really, really true because one of the things I had the benefit of learning a long time ago was that respect leads to credibility, credibility leads to trust, and trust leads to influence, and that's linear. You can't skip one step to go to the other. I think sometimes people think they have all the answers. You have to pace yourself, you have to slow down, you have to seek to understand, and you can't rush that process.

Back to asking questions, it's important to also understand that part of your job, taking on a task, entering a new organization, is to drink a hell of a lot of Kool-Aid and really understand what you're up against before you start bringing all your ideas forward because the ideas or the playbook you might have executed in the past might not work in this new environment that you're in.

[00:14:06] Kimberly: Got to toss back that full Stanley tumbler full of Kool-Aid and dive in there. Maybe we can get a little more specific and talk about what your experiences have been at Parkland over the past two years. When you first joined and had this data and digital role and a mandate for change, how did you really approach looking for the right opportunities or what the initial opportunities for change could be?

[00:14:35] Shawn: Stepping back, this is probably my fifth tour of duty in a C-level digital-type role or data-type role. I think, intuitively, you have a pretty decent understanding of where you want to go when it comes to a customer orientation or bringing platform thinking or evolving how people work. In your mind, you have a bit of that playbook. The question is, how do you get there? That's the riddle that you're trying to solve. You need those vehicles for change, if you will, that you can latch onto. What we had to do was the double diamond approach. We got to go wide a little bit to scan the surface area, but then narrow in on where the key opportunities are.

I was a bit lucky, because I had this interesting entry into the organization. One side, I was the new person. I had a mandate that I had to hone and figure out. What's interesting about that part is what you think your mandate is doesn't necessarily translate to what people think you do. Me saying, "Hey, this is my job description with these 15 bullet points on it" is irrelevant. I spent probably the first 90 days meeting up to 200 different team members and asked the same question over and over again, which is, "What do you think digital means?"

[00:15:58] Kimberly: How many answers did you get when you asked 200 people?

[00:16:00] Shawn: [crosstalk] I got 198 different answers. That's okay because your job is how do you cut through all of that to start to tease out what you think it really is and what it means back to the organization because that's their truth, and that's what matters. I also had the other side of it in terms of benefit, which is I got thrown into a really big project, like you got to launch this thing in five months kind of environment. I had to tread between new person, ask a lot of questions, be curious, understand, and facilitate. Hey, you got to deliver this thing in March, and you got five months to go do it, which in hindsight was helpful because it really helped me understand how the organization delivers.

That was part of the onboarding, if you will, that only accelerated my learning, which was super helpful. Then you have to choose wisely, Kimberly, I think is really the point which is if you get inundated with all the different things that you can do and you end up trying to do 20 things at once, you're going to fail. You got to choose wisely and pick and narrow to the top three and have a bit of patience. That's what we tried to do, which was really narrow down to the critical few and start to prioritize as ruthlessly as possible.

[00:17:18] Kimberly: Choosing wisely, and I was just reading something like I do pretty much every day about AI and how folks are applying it these days. I think that's the same thing we're hearing consistently of, "You can have a million use cases, but you're only going to be really moving the needle and changing something if you're really thoughtful and focus in on a handful of those. I think that really applied to whatever change dimension you're talking about. Encouraging to hear that that's been your experience as well. You talked about relationships being a real key part of successfully driving change.

You were thoughtful and selected a handful of change opportunities, but then you've got to go on that heavy relationship to our piece and go about obtaining leadership buy-in to get things up and moving. That can often be, I think we know, a particularly challenging piece of the change process. Can you talk a little bit about what you found works well or how you approach gaining that necessary buy-in to start driving change?

[00:18:28] Shawn: Absolutely. I think part of it is also this tension between push and pull. What we mean by that is you're only going to get so far trying to push initiatives on people versus creating pull from the organization because they understand the value that can be created, and they want to partner with any given team on any given initiative. We spend a lot of time trying to create more pull within the organization through education and through conversations and through creating and inspiring folks. I think back to your point around buy-in and socialization, a lot of the roads really started where the sponsorship is.

I think if we created a checklist of the 15 things you needed in order to be successful delivering any significant initiative, probably the most important thing on that list is having a really committed, dedicated sponsor in the C-suite at the executive level and then co-creating with that person what the right way to navigate like that socialization process is. What's a good example? We're actually in the middle of one right now, where we have a untapped opportunity to optimize a whole bunch of our assets to reduce the cost to serve. As you can imagine, when you move 28 billion liters of fuel annually, that's big money.

We've been spending quite a bit of time in workshops, working with our sponsor, socializing, planning, coming up for air and seeing the CEO and the executive team, and just not falling into the trap of trying to move too quickly without getting that buy-in and that socialization. A lot of what we're doing is 90-day planning, which is, we know where we want to go in the next three to five years, but we continue to plant these flagpoles at 90-day intervals to say, "Okay, it's January 1. Tell me about March 31st." We're sitting on this call. We got an hour. What are we going to be talking about? What do we want to deliver?

Then it's like, "How realistic is that? What buy-in do we need to make that happen? Who do you need cross-functionally to make you successful? I find a lot of what has helped me in my career, and even in some of the recent initiatives that we're doing, is starting to visualize a point in time and start to work backwards from that and ask really simple questions around what does success look like? Great. What do you need to make that happen? Awesome. You start working through those types of questions, and this idea of practicing visualization, I think, helps, and it helps in many facets of life.

[00:21:14] Kimberly: Yes. I'm an athlete, I like to think. A very amateur one, but yes, I'm all for visualization. You close your eyes, you see that ball going straight down the fairway. It helps. It really does.

[00:21:24] Shawn: [crosstalk] I was thinking about golf as an analogy for that. It's very, very true. I know it's not earth-shattering thinking here, but I think, sometimes, your ability to execute on the basics brilliantly is what will make or break you.

[00:21:39] Kimberly: I think tying to your point on begin with the end in mind and have that visualization, but also having checkpoints, these can be big, literally, in leaders or as you were talking about moving fuel in this instance, for folks not to get fatigued when you're even on the initial stages of a change journey. Obviously, you mentioned having more digestible milestones for folks so they can understand what's coming two or three steps ahead versus worrying about what's way out on the horizon. Is there anything else that you found to be effective in order to keep change momentum and energy up?

[00:22:27] Shawn: Quick wins. You got to find quick wins along the way. You have to surface them, talk about them, find ways to implement them, make them visible. I learned from someone many years ago how to break things down and make the problem smaller. I think in Thoughtworks lingo, you might talk about a deep slice and how you might do a deep slice through organization down to architecture to prove out an idea so that you can then scale it more horizontally. I think those types of practices work. I don't think today there's a lot of patience for the Big Bang 18-month initiative that only proves value 1 and 1⁄2 years into its delivery cycle.

You got to find ways. You can talk about Agile and MVPs and all this jargon. The reality is, it's like, how do you break problems down and make them smaller, how do you prove out ideas and demonstrate value, and how do you earth these quick wins? A lot of that's a mindset. A lot of that is set. There's a tone that's set at the beginning of things around what we're truly trying to achieve, and while, yes, there's a really big prize down the road, you got to find ways to deliver quick wins to continue building momentum.

Because it's like a pay-as-you-go type environment. You have to prove it in order to get the dollars to invest. I said before, there's very little appetite and patience to wait too long. I think we're well past the days of deploying something, launching it 18 months later, and then it failing in market when you could actually learn from your stakeholders and learn from your customers a hell of a lot sooner than that.

[00:24:10] Kimberly: Yes. Absolutely. Hopefully, that shift in mentality and way of working and thinking has helped change efforts. People don't have as much patience for better or worse now, but then that does enable that more thin, deep slice, quicker test and learn approach that I think is advantageous to moving things along and then make sure you're not spending 18 months creating and launching something.

[00:24:34] Shawn: We just took on this initiative towards the end of last year to simplify the way we deliver offers to customers. Everybody thought it was like a big platform play and a big project. What it ended up turning out to be was just really re-engineering a whole bunch of business processes and getting things done. We can fix that in four weeks. We can fix that in two weeks. We can fix that in these incremental changes of hitting singles and not grand slams. I think we've also seen it recently on a bunch of work that we've been doing, where the actual outcome in terms of what we needed to do to unleash, if you will, the value was very different than what we thought it was when we started.

It also puts a bit of an emphasis on, how do you do those assessments? How do you plan for your initiatives? I'm a big believer in a good amount of upfront planning pays dividends downstream, and in that case, avoided likely spending unnecessary capital on a big systems project. It turned into a quick-win process initiative, which, to be honest with you, is great news because it allows the team to deliver value that much quicker.

[00:25:46] Kimberly: Maybe, if you don't mind, getting into one of those examples in particular, because this is a little bit of an opportunity for you to brag on some of the change that Parkland is realizing. I think it'd be useful for listeners to get a real concrete example of how you started One Direction and perhaps maybe ultimately went somewhere else, but still delivering value at the end game.

[00:26:12] Shawn: Yes. When I joined Parkland, we had a pretty lean team. We had a bunch of incumbent partners, and we had a, and I'll probably focus on the loyalty side of things because that's where we've made the most progress, an environment that necessarily didn't move as quickly as we needed to keep pace with customer demand. We weren't equipping our teams with the tools and the processes to deliver value quickly enough. We went on a bit of a mission to find ways to simplify the path to production. How do we quickly take an idea and put it into the hands of a customer? Just anecdotally, we might have done three or four releases a year. Last year, we did 38.

[00:27:01] Kimberly: There you go right there. [chuckles]

[00:27:04] Shawn: Not all of them landed perfectly, so that quality versus speed thing. It all sounds great, but don't get me wrong. There's a lot of warts on that journey, especially when you're trying to craft end-to-end processes that really have been organic and cobbled together for many years. It can be challenging for people to realize that their roles are changing, that the mandate or responsibilities that they once had is evolving. The change management aspect of this is critical. We spend quite a bit of time on change management. We minted a process that didn't exist.

We were able to deliver releases every two weeks, early and often to customers. We now have much better visibility and to voice the customer and what our customers are saying. We have a lot more observability and better incident management and operational management of our capabilities. It's pretty dramatic, the shifts that we've made. We're also not satisfied. We have a lot more work to do. That's what's motivating about it, is we're starting to create the engine to achieve that bigger outcome. That's what really keeps driving us and motivating us.

[00:28:16] Kimberly: I want to go back, too, to something that you highlighted in your intro. You've, I think, had the unique experience of doing this tour a number of times, as you were saying, that I've felt like you need your digital transformation stars, like a general or something. You've also done it in a variety of industries: telco, media entertainment, now energy. Is there any difference or any insights you have if you're trying to create culture shift? Some organizations are going to be much more digitally savvy and native than others. Is there anything I guess you need to take into account given the different industry spaces you would be playing in?

[00:29:02] Shawn: Yes, listen, and I've also had quite a few failures along the way as I've moved through different organizations and tried to activate on a playbook in different companies. If I think about failure because it's always fun to talk about failure--

[00:29:18] Kimberly: Yes, normalize it, talk about it.

[00:29:20] Shawn: Yes, listen, it's part of the learning experience. I think a lot of the times, a lot of this stuff is like innovation theater, and no one really hears the raw real deal and what were the lessons from the trenches around what actually happened. I think in some instances, getting really aligned with the boss and getting really aligned on what you're trying to achieve is super important. Back to that message I said before, is what you think your job is doesn't matter, it's what everybody else thinks you do is what matters. I think that, in some ways, you can get too focused on what you think you're doing and what you think the right thing is versus actually spending the time to align and get that buy-in.

I would say that becomes critical. Those first 90 days are super important. I don't know if anybody ever read the book The First 90 Days. I still reinforce that with anybody who's joining our organization, which is like, what's 30 days? What's the theme? What are your activities, and what are your outcomes? Actually, stick to it and help folks by scheduling those checkpoints every 30 days to see how you're progressing through that journey. I think I've made a few mistakes where more push than pull, and we didn't get the traction that we wanted.

Another example, while the conversation was good around an appetite for change, as you really got into it, you started to realize, "Nah, this is my world, that's your world." It really didn't come together the way I would have liked it to. There were a bunch of different circumstances in that role. I also think it's creating that social contract between you and that stakeholder or that sponsor.

If, for example, you're a digital person and you're working with a marketing org or an operations team, you really got to spend that time getting on the same page. Are both of you kicking off an initiative? Are both of you setting the context? Are you singing from the same song sheet? Do you have shared objectives? I think a little bit of the lessons learned was don't get too caught up on what you think the answer is.

[00:31:28] Kimberly: Don't assume.

[00:31:30] Shawn: Assumptions are super dangerous. I think if there's anything, while we've had lots of wins along the way and have done some great stuff, I think if anything I could reflect back on, it's really that don't make assumptions, it's about a plan that you share, not a plan that's yours, and what you think your job is doesn't mean that's what other people think it is. I think that's probably three good lessons learned coming out of some experiences I've had.

[00:31:56] Kimberly: Absolutely. I think the don't make assumptions point is the exact counter to the be curious. If you're being curious, you're not making those--

[00:32:05] Shawn: It's easy to fall into the trap, though, Kimberly. Even though folks might have 10, 15, 20-plus years experience, it's sometimes hard to check yourself and remind yourself. That's where having a good mentor or having a group of people around you that you lean on. I'm lucky to have a bunch of folks that I tap into often and say, "Hey, I'm doing this. What do you think?" or, "Hey, you solved this before. What do you think?"

I guess the idea is don't be too proud to ask for help and be mindful that you'll likely know a lot less than other people on certain topics. The best leaders I find are very well aware and mindful of their weaknesses and then find ways to compensate for those by surrounding themselves with a great network of people that can help guide them.

[00:32:56] Kimberly: Absolutely. Sounds like there's a bit of a change therapy group or forum to tap into. That can be immensely helpful. I was going to ask one final question of you, Shawn, but I think I heard you answer it a little bit there was, for folks who are listening and in the midst of their own culture shift, change program or they want to kick one off, what would the advice be to them? I've heard, don't assume, be curious, make sure that you are building those relationships, make sure that you have the alignment and understand what folks think your job is. Don't just go in with your myopic view of that. Anything else you want to add to that as a topper?

[00:33:46] Shawn: Yes, we talked about a lot of stuff, but maybe we didn't talk enough about measuring value. We spend quite a bit of time I guess-- We learned this a long time ago as well, which is don't build something you cannot measure and thinking about the data, especially on larger initiatives, like this idea of some value tracking office or how do you partner with your finance team to get them aligned with you on how do we calculate benefits here?

I think a lot of people are working through, especially in the data space, because in digital, it's a little bit easier because you typically have a customer channel on it, it's driving e-commerce revenue or it's driving loyalty and affinity and there's a lot of frameworks around how to measure value in that space. On the data platform side, one of the riddles is how do you measure the value of data and this data asset you're creating and this capability that enables all these mission-critical business processes? A lot of it is like, how do you partner with finance, for example, to understand how value is generated, how value is recognized? Because, my boss says this frequently, "If those benefits aren't baked into someone's P&L, is this really happening?"

[00:35:07] Kimberly: Yes, do the benefits even exist?

[00:35:09] Shawn: Are they really committed to this? I think that's also really important to spend a lot of time on that, because if you're working on an initiative that on paper is delivering $20 million worth of benefit, but your stakeholders risk adjusted that 99% and has like half a million dollars in their P&L, you've got a problem. You need to try and bridge that gap of the level of confidence people have and the benefits they believe that any one of the initiatives you're working on delivers. I would say if there's one thing maybe I could leave everybody with, in addition to all the other stuff we talked about, which is, find a way to measure value.

[00:35:49] Kimberly: Yes. I think that's a great one to leave folks with and also make sure that they have in mind in the early stages of change. Shawn, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to chat all things change and catch up with you a little bit and hear what's been going on at Parkland. I think you definitely need to lobby to visit the Caribbean office locations this time of year instead of staying up in Toronto. I don't know how successful that'll be, but you should definitely go for that. Thank you so much. It's been great having you on, and I've really enjoyed our conversation.

[00:36:24] Shawn: Always a pleasure to see you, Kim. Thank you.

[00:36:27] Kimberly: Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of Pragmatism in Practice. If you'd like to listen to similar podcasts, please visit us at thoughtworks.com/podcasts. If you enjoyed the show, help spread the word by rating us on your preferred podcast platform.

[00:36:51] [END OF AUDIO]